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Crito

Socrates

                People should not be overly concerned with public opinion

                                Though they can kill, they cannot make you wise or foolish

                                “They act wholly at random”

Crito

Socrates

I must be consistent with my pervious arguments –

                Some opinions are worthier than others, whether or not more people believe them

                                The better opinions come from the specialists

                                We should listen to experts and not the masses on justice – the person who understands justice is the best judge

                                It is better to cling to correct notions of justice and die than live and be wrong (IX)

                Should I illegally escape?

                                                It doesn’t matter what people do to you, it is your behavior that matters

                                A just person must act justly

I agreed that I would abide by any decision of the state,

                                The destruction of a state lies in its laws being ignored or thwarted

                                                The state who allowed you to be born – marriage laws

                                                Regulated your childhood and educated you

                                                                (The state who gave you the ability to question)

                                                Gave you the rights of your station

                                                Who shared “all the good things” it could

                                The state is more important than you, your father, and your ancestors #8

                                So those who disobey:

                                                disobeys his real parents and masters

                                                disobeys that which really raised him

                                                disobeys those that he agreed to obey if he could not convince otherwise

                You seemed satisfied with the state, you never left it – preferred death to exile

                He has the option of obeying or trying to persuade (XIV)

                                You agreed to our rules –

Similarities(with Aristotle)            Dissimilarities

State makes you (master, father)                                Element of state obligations (education, material goods)

State is the source of rights                                        Right to convince implied

State has authority over every element of life              Individual agreement seems relevant

Ultimate authority is gov and law

Individual is not what matters

Life outside collective seems foreign, empty, devoid – “will life be worth having?” -

  Socrates executed in 399 BC – Trop v. Dulles ruled in 1958 (2,357 years later)

Trop v. Dulles – majority decision written by Warren

Can a state revoke citizenship? – or is it violation of the 8^th – evolving standards of decency

State can fine, imprison and kill (Plato and Aristotle would both agree)

But the “total destruction of the individual’s status in organized society.  It is a form of punishment more primitive than torture, for it destroys for the individual the political existence than was centuries in development.” (citizenship=humanity?)

It robs the individual of the right to have rights (state is source of rights)

It exposes the individual to the ultimate in arbitrary deprivation (Aristotle – so?  Plato – how arbitrary?)